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Justin Brady: I’m Justin Brady. And according to Axios, this decline in Christianity across the country has actually plateaued just a little bit, actually plateaued. But not before it actually came crashing down for many, years. We’re going to talk about all that. We’re going to talk about why and why Iowa actually meets the national trend. Iowa bucks the trend a lot. You all know that. But Iowa in this case is following the trend. We’re going to figure out why that is with Pastor Rob Pearson, the youth and connections pastor. And you know what? I can’t believe I did this. Name your church because I didn’t even write

Rob Pearson: Okay, Living Waters Fellowship, yeah.

Justin Brady: Waters Fellowship.

Rob Pearson: Southside of Des Moines.

Justin Brady: Mistake, everybody. All right, Living Waters Fellowship. I want to get that right. There we go. Okay, so a lot of people aren’t identifying as Christian anymore. Now, there are a lot of questions I have, and I know the listeners have around this topic, but in 2007, it was 78 percent of the country that claimed to be a Christian. I say claimed. Maybe we’ll get into that in 2024. It’s 63%. however you read the data, this is all from Pew Research, everybody. A link will go in the show notes so you can look at it yourself. And Iowa looks to be tracking with that trend. So it’s a, downward trend. Can I start broadly and say what happened and also thanks for coming on the show

Rob Pearson: thanks for having me on. This should be a lot of fun. I’m looking forward to it. yeah. Broadly, why? I think, yeah, I think we probably have to start with defining terms. what is a church? What was being researched? And those kinds of things. when you think of, what, kind of churches are out there? mainline denominations. There have been a lot of, it seems like dying churches, throughout Iowa. And so you’re seeing that. but on the other side, what the network that I’m involved in, we’re seeing growth and we’re, planting churches and we’re seeing people enjoy that. so there is, I think there’s some reasons behind that, maybe why those mainline denominations, people have. that. and yeah, so we can certainly talk about that. I think, to start with, I would say that, people have, expectations, when they come to a church and as people change, in society and in the world, people have expectations when they walk into a church

Justin Brady: that’s

Rob Pearson: and, we have, there’s church shopping, but, where, people are looking for. Trying to figure out, what they want instead of going, okay, what, church is probably the most, biblical or what, and letting the word inform your life, that sort of situation.

Justin Brady: are a few terms here because I asked about Christians and you also mentioned churches now according to the data Those things are actually distinct now I think historically they may have been probably tracking if 78 percent of the country identifies as a Christian 78 percent intense Church so it’s super interesting because and, by the way, Pew research data does get this granular and it is all over the map to your point, like it’s weird, but you mentioned in your church planting network, you’re seeing growth, but nationally and in Iowa, people identifying as Christians are down. And people going to church are also down. And so we’re going to dig into a lot. it sounds really confusing people like how can Christians be down? But Pastor Pearson saying that their denominations are going. That doesn’t make a lot of sense. It will. That’s what the whole point of this is. You mentioned expectations. I’m actually glad you said this because you, imply, correct me if I’m wrong, but you imply people are going to or looking for churches almost as if they would look for groceries. I, this one has the, I don’t know, this one has the cream top on the muffin and this one doesn’t have the, is this kind of what people are doing?

Rob Pearson: that. And then they want maybe everything to line up with what their current view is, on life. And so then they walk into the church and, and, they look for a church that already matches what they have going on in their head, but, I think when you think of Christians, and you look at the word, Christian in and of itself, there’s a lot of people that I’ll talk to out on the street, that will, I’ll say, what does that mean to you? What does it mean to you that you’re a, Christian and you get definitions that are a pretty wide and, or loose on what a Christian is, I would say a Christian is somebody that is decided that, Jesus is God and Jesus is who they’re going to follow. And, so that, that to me is a, is a Christian. whereas like you might, talk to some Muslims and they would say, okay, you’re in America. So you’re a Christian. so so I think, we really have to, it’s fun to get into those conversations with people and say, what is it you actually believe?

Justin Brady: Yeah. for example, the U. S. is a Christian nation. That’s what you hear thrown around a lot. And then people are like, if the U. S. is a Christian nation, why did you do XYZ? Name your awful thing. And then you’re like, okay, hold up.

Rob Pearson: the

Justin Brady: S. is not a Christian nation. We had some Christians that started it. But, so that’s that’s thrown around a lot. Globally is that you’re just an American and you’re a Christian, which is certainly not the case. Are we seeing a real decline then in Christianity? Because 78 percent in 2007, like that’s what the data says. 78 percent of the USA identified as a Christian in 2007, which to me, I’m like, there’s just no way that just seems artificially high. Is that behind it? Is it because maybe I, maybe I should ask this as a question. Is Christianity declining those who follow Jesus? Is that declining or are people just starting to finally realize what being a Christian is?

Rob Pearson: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think, maybe people that jumped on. On board, became Christians, went to a church, did the religious thing. it, has become less convenient to do that. Whereas it was more convenient in America before to just call yourself Christian. Go to a church. Be part of this community. now it’s getting harder. it pushes people the way that society is going. It pushes people to go, what do I really, what do I really believe in? Do I really, believe that Jesus is the savior of the world and that I want to follow him? And that means things for my life,

Justin Brady: Do you think that like sixties, seventies. before my time clearly, but do you think like the 60s, 70s, Christian movement, there was a little bit of public pressure, like you had to, you indicated a little bit of that there. So I want to explore that. But was there a little bit of public pressure? Like you just had to say you were a Christian to keep people off your back and shut up and fine. I’m a Christian. It was, there a little bit of that in that, culture and that finally that public pressure is. Releasing?

Rob Pearson: Maybe I guess I don’t know. Yeah, it could be I’m, I look at like my family history and I’ll just talk a little bit about that. my dad did not come from any Christian home and lived out in the country. And then, it was when he got into his twenties. That he heard about Jesus and gave his life to Jesus. So like I don’t think that’s Yeah, I don’t think that’s everybody’s story probably. Yeah, but it wasn’t unpopular To be a Christian. I don’t think if you go back in history in the US Whereas I think now, yeah, it can become less, less popular.

Justin Brady: Because, one of the other things I wanted to get into with you was that where, just national numbers, Christianity is declining, we are seeing increases, not by a lot, but a little bit, in, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism. And so if people are taking the mentality of like religion shopping, just in which, I agree with that. You probably shouldn’t focus on religions from an aspect of what you want. It should probably be what’s the truth. but if people are religious shopping, why are they pulling Islam, Judaism and Buddhism off the shelf? Instead of Christianity,

Rob Pearson: That’s a great question. I think, I think you go to the deepest issue of all of this, which, you go back in time to Genesis, right? And so you say, hey, everything’s perfect in the garden. Adam and Eve sin, they’re, kicked out of the garden for their sin. They’re in a fallen world. We’re in the flesh. We’re sinful in the flesh now. there’s a war between good and evil, between God and Satan. And, so that war, is against Jesus Christ. And, so that is very real. And so that is, being fought. And so people that I’ve talked to we’re finding more religious plurality, with people as well.

Justin Brady: so this is interesting because when you say now as I for those that don’t know full disclosure here Everybody actually have a Bible major.

Rob Pearson: Hey, all right,

Justin Brady: you know, so

Rob Pearson: I should be asking you the

Justin Brady: So Rob’s in the hot seat. Let me tell you. Hey, what’s interesting is as a Christian Like I was telling you before we were recording. I try to do my best to look at any issue from complete neutrality there may be a better word to say this, but I try to take my own Christian background, my own education, my own upbringing completely out of any issue before I tackle it. That’s what I try to do. And I always think of the whole like God versus Satan thing and supernatural stuff from a non believer from a non Christian sounds a bit wacky now from someone who is like. Islam or Judaism, right there. That’s an easier conversation to have. They have a foundation in the supernatural, so I’ve always thought that’s I know that sounds crazy to people when I talk about that. I know it sounds nuts, but according to Pew Research, maybe it’s not that nuts because 80 percent which is roughly I’ve been combining two different data sets here. 80%

Rob Pearson: percent

Justin Brady: Believe in the supernatural and the existence. Now, they don’t say what that is, obviously, and the existence of their own soul that’s different from their body 80 percent which is crazy. So is there just a disconnect like people know there’s this deeper? they’re, they know there’s a supernatural and they’re just looking to find where that fits. Is this kind of what’s going on?

Rob Pearson: I think that’s definitely the problem when Paul speaks to Mars Hill, he said, perhaps that they would feel their way to God and the people they were, looking for an unknown God. And Paul’s perhaps you might feel your way to God. people are there since you go back to Paul as he’s, preaching there, people are trying to feel their way to God. who is God? Where is God? And a lot of people will have these ideas that, your God, is okay, your God is okay, all these gods, it leads up to this mountain and there’s some sort of deity at the top, just believe in one of them, it’s fine, and, but Jesus Christ, is obviously exclusive, he says that, he’s the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through the Son, Jesus, and getting, to a spot in conversation first with people. And these are long, they’re fun conversations to have with people as they’re wrestling through, First, is there, a God, and working through all the questions, it’s hard to deny that there’s a God when you start to look at the stars and the moon and everything else. And, just how things are made, how the body’s made, all of those things that there’s not a designer behind that. and then, but you go beyond that and then you get to, okay, if there’s a God who is God and, wouldn’t God have left us something. If he’s designed all of this, wouldn’t he have left us something to be able to talk to us? and that’s why I believe the word of God is and the Bible. And, he tells the story from the beginning to the end and, and, the good news of Jesus. So

Justin Brady: Yeah, the, I will say, the, there is this clear break, right? There are people that are seeking this truth and seeking out religions. But then there’s also at the same time a growing number of atheism of atheists in the world. And that number, by the way, has also plateaued. So we’re at almost this, we’re at this odd, is something changing in this country is, and this is all us data I’m sourcing. and so atheism was also growing and has leveled off at 29%. So are we seeing this plurality, this split where some people are looking for religions for truth and then others. Are saying I don’t even know what the truth is because sometimes I talk to atheists and it turns out they’re not atheists, they’re actually agnostics and they, just think atheism means, I don’t know what the truth is, so I’m not going to tell you. I’m like, dude, that’s agnostic different, totally fine. and so are we actually seeing is the data of atheism increasing and people looking for various religions is, are they both? Yeah. A sign that finally people are starting to look for things like is the data just becoming actually more clear Whereas before it was a little cloudy people like I don’t know I believe in god So i’m a christian I guess you

Rob Pearson: right? Yeah.

Justin Brady: thing are things just becoming more clear people are seeking

Rob Pearson: yeah, I think so. I think, so I think if you look back, I would probably say that, with all of these churches and you had so much religiosity. where people were trying to like, Hey, do a bunch of things. You, go to church, you check the box. but there’s no real change of heart. There’s no real change of life. they’re not finding the, they’re not finding God maybe, in the church, wherever they were at. And, so now they’re going, okay, maybe atheism, is the answer. But with young people today, we’re, seeing more questions. Like kids are, searching for truth. And I think. Kids today are, better than, even when I was growing up, where they’re better at asking questions than they want to get to. They want to get to truth. And so it’s, really cool.

Justin Brady: what are some of the questions that are coming up now? Is there any you work with youth a lot clearly and? Are there any kind of pattern questions that seem to come up a lot that people are asking?

Rob Pearson: I would say there’s probably a couple of categories. There’s, your kids that are already in the church. Maybe they’ve, they’re grow, they’ve grown up in a home that’s taught them about Jesus. And so their questions might be more. more Bible knowledge based, some some life questions based, like how to, how does, this work itself out in my life, as I follow Jesus. but then we’ve got kids that’ll come to youth group that, just don’t, they don’t know, they don’t, they’ve really never heard much of the Bible. They’ve really never heard much about Jesus Christ. And so their questions are like. Okay. who is Jesus? What, did he do? Like why? Yeah, it’s, super broad. It’s super bright, which is awesome because I love it getting into, just no basis of knowledge, for who Jesus is to, okay, now you’re coming to know, the God of the Bible who loves you, who died for you. And, it’s, cool to see, that go off and in their

Justin Brady: Is that part of the downward trend in people identifying as Christians? Because and it’s really interesting, Rob, because what you’re saying, again, aligns with the peer research data. Younger folks are less likely to identify as a Christian than those like 75 plus, I think is what the comparison data was. but, and this is the key thing, and you’re indicating this as well, they’re also less likely to grow up in a home that identifies as Christian or a religious household, I believe is what Pew Research phrases it as. to your point, a lot of, younger people aren’t Christian, but they’re also not growing up in a Christian home at all, which is interesting because those 75 and older was like 85 percent or something really, high. So it’s like some of these older people who grew up in Christian homes and claimed to be a Christian aren’t actually teaching their children this, which is, which explains why there’s a disparity in the younger population. And so are the questions from kids very much coming from a standpoint and a foundation of, I have no foundation in any of this

Rob Pearson: Yes. Yes, that’s totally what it is. they don’t have a foundation in any of it. And they’re looking for truth. They’re looking for the answers for life. And, it’s cool with kids because they’re not walking in with any prior church hurt. they, they, they’re, and they’re walking in and saying I just don’t want to know the truth. I want to know, is, God real? Is Jesus real? Who is he? and then the fun questions, there’s always these questions like, Hey, does the Bible talk about dinosaurs? like those, they come up, And and so we go through those questions and it’s a fun time.

Justin Brady: the answer is

Rob Pearson: Yes.

Justin Brady: they do.

Rob Pearson: Yes, it does.

Justin Brady: the, so talking about the

Rob Pearson: Yeah.

Justin Brady: 63 percent again, going back to the numbers presently Yeah. Yeah. 63 percent consider themselves a Christian, 30 percent belong to a traditional church. And I think Pew defines this as like a building where everybody goes and worships together.

Rob Pearson: So

Justin Brady: are we seeing a, if 63 percent consider themselves a Christian, 30 percent belong to a traditional church, are people just not going to the church? At all, or people changing their definition of what church is. You’re obviously see seeing some growth, acts defines the church as I think it’s three or more gather. there, I will be, I, can’t quote the exact verse, but churches, people gathering together, there’s accountability there, there’s community there. So are people just changing the definition of church? Some similar to the fact that they’re finally learning what Christian actually means. or not in your case, it sounds like no, there are still coming to a traditional

Rob Pearson: Yeah. They’re still coming or we’re finding them, like we’re, called to as believers to, pray to Lord to harvest, to, to, find people and, that there’s so many, the harvest is plentiful, but the labors are few, so there’s so many people out there that. That desire to know Christ and that don’t and so yeah, we’ll go out from the church to find, those people, but I think what you’re mentioning. Yeah, we’re two or three are gathered there. I am, yes, God is God is there, but it’s God’s idea is the church, right? And so what’s the purpose of the church? And we have people that come in and we do membership classes and they’re like, okay, What’s with membership? the Bible doesn’t really use the word membership, and, and so we go through membership classes. Why members, why do those things? And we work through all of that and, to try to explain, what is the purpose of the church? Jesus, when he’s talking to Peter, he says, I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. And so God uses the church to fight this unseen battle, that, that is going on. That’s been waged.

Justin Brady: There’s a term there, the church and a church. And so I find that, and I don’t know if this is a turnoff or it matters, but sometimes Christians tend to talk in what I call Christian ease,

Rob Pearson: Yep.

Justin Brady: And so it’s the, they’ll talk about the blood of Christ and people like, what the heck are you talking about? It sounds disgusting. What is wrong with you people? so we do, Christians tend to do that a lot. and so when you say the church and a church, those are actually two, they’re not two different things, but they are. Can you explain that a little bit?

Rob Pearson: So there’s the broad, there’s the church, there’s the people that That through Jesus Christ, people are coming to know Jesus Christ who died for their sin, who paid for their sin, and they’re putting their trust in Him by faith. and so those people, God saves when somebody puts their trust in Jesus as their Savior. God saves them, they become part of his church, the big church, right? And then there’s the local church, the local church would be like, these little churches like gatherings of, a body of believers in different places, and then trying to do. The things that God calls you to do in the church. So like the sacraments, baptism and communion, those things as you gather together. And then in the church, the local church, that is where, a lot of, we’re told like, Hey, love one another. all of the, all of a lot of things in first John talk about what we’re supposed to do in the church. And, so things that are to be carried out now. It doesn’t really talk about size, right? could be small, could be big. there’s not, I think, when Jesus, I don’t remember the number. It was like a hundred and something, right? Before in the upper room, before Jesus is crucified. it was like a hundred and some people that were there. So it wasn’t, a massive, it wasn’t a massive gathering, but that’s what it was. And, but you have the size of the church. I don’t know that’s. Is as big of a deal as much as are you doing is a church doing what a church should be doing.

Justin Brady: And there is like an acts, some outlining structure with how to structure a church and how do you elders and deacons and how they’re organized. There’s, there are some instructions to that, which indicate that the. A church body, a church community maybe should have like at least enough structure to run it, whether it has a building or not. I think a lot of Christians get stuck on the building and they’re like, we need to have a building. We know you don’t,

Rob Pearson: Yeah. Yeah.

Justin Brady: but, the have online services because speaking of the building, I know this is a, this is a contentious

Rob Pearson: Okay. Yeah, this is

Justin Brady: there’s conflict in the church, just and that’s okay. Conflict’s good. But I know that there’s this little bit of conflict with the online church, which got popularized in 2020 COVID.

Rob Pearson: Yes.

Justin Brady: so there’s this one idea that, that increases access, so that’s good. More people can hear the gospel message. Okay, but then there’s also this, but at the same time, it allows people to unplug from the community a little bit, which is also a difficult So where do you sit on that and what are the what do pastors think? What do congregants think? What’s the kind of the thinking here?

Rob Pearson: So we encourage our church, hate to get together. Hebrews. In Hebrews, you would see where it says, do not forsake the gathering of yourselves. we’re, supposed to gather together. I think that was the thing during COVID that we were like, you felt it. you felt, I’m not gathered. I’m not gathered with people. this is so weird. I love that I can sit across a table from you and have a conversation right now. if we’re doing it over a, screen, it’s just not the same. And,

Justin Brady: Jesus couldn’t have fed the 5, 000 over the screen, right? He would have had to FedEx the loaves and

Rob Pearson: right. Yeah. Amazon it over or whatever. Yeah. and so there, there is definitely something to, gathering together, like I, and I’m the, I’m the connections pastor. So when, people come in on a Sunday morning, I get to hug people, like you don’t get to do that over a screen, and so that’s part of a community in a church, is loving one another. And I think. it’s loving to someone else to be there. And, and you need it too, like to be in a church and to, be loved on by others

Justin Brady: Yeah, it’s interesting because the raging debate in like remote work and in person work almost comes into the church too, because, and I take both sides on this, which is the flexibility. For remote is great. And I like, I work for myself. Therefore, I set the rules. Therefore, I didn’t really have, but what’s funny about that is I still actually pay monthly for an office membership to go to an office and work with other people, which is funny. and so some people, oh, must be nice to work from home. Yeah, but I pay money of my own money to go to work. They’re like, why would you do that?

Rob Pearson: Yeah.

Justin Brady: is this like a split. where I think in person, I think remote is great, but in person is so powerful. There’s a tech CEO that was on this show, years ago, boy, I think years ago by now the show is actually getting old, everybody. And he mentioned tech CEO. They’re deep into AI. So you’d think tech CEO AI, they probably do meta goggle meetings and this stuff. Not true. He actually gives all his employees thousands of dollars annual in a budget to meet together. And he calls meeting together high bandwidth communication because you can communicate with your eyes, like you said, you can give someone a hug, a high five as, we don’t, I think previously we’ve discounted how impactful that is because we didn’t have the ability to track it and understand it and research it. We do now we can track human connection through fMRI machines. And we can realize that, yes, the majority of human communication is coming from the non verbals. Which is why when you text someone, people get so angry so quickly, because you’re like, What the, I was like, this was a good faith conversation, now they’re ticked off, it’s because that, that high bandwidth communication really does matter. So Is this something that you’re pushing people to do then is to come back in person, come back if you want to, I don’t even know if you do online services. Do you

Rob Pearson: do. We do have some. Yep.

Justin Brady: so you, but you do say, Hey, online services is good for when you’re sick or when you’re, but you should, seek a community. Is that a hard pill for some people as well?

Rob Pearson: I don’t think so. Maybe right after COVID it was like those were conversations we were having with people and explaining to people the importance of. Hey, coming back out of the home and you also had just fear going on at that time too, with, people coming back after COVID. But now I think it’s, I think it’s a matter of like people love, gathering together. And so it’s not a hard sell, if you were to try to, say you were selling it, people just enjoy, I think, being connected, being around other people. And then if you’re, when you’re singing, like we’re, you’re called a corporately saying, right? We sing together. when you’re singing next to me, it’s, encouraging to me. If I’m sitting, if I’m gonna sit,

Justin Brady: your tone is right, it is

Rob Pearson: doesn’t even have to be that

Justin Brady: kidding. Just kidding.

Rob Pearson: supposed to make a joyful noise. And so

Justin Brady: There are some people who their noise just is not that

Rob Pearson: that’s true.

Justin Brady: Totally joke.

Rob Pearson: Bring, your earplugs,

Justin Brady: Yes,

Rob Pearson: but no, it is great to be singing next to other people and it’s encouraging. when you’re at home, you just don’t get that, right? but I, there is value in, technology. People are sick, they’re on vacation, they want to plug in. or hey, we do a podcast for the church. we, our slogan is like, hey, we try to help the church feel smaller. People keep people connected. So as the church continues to grow in number. Sometimes it’s hard to know like a person over here or know a person over there. And then I bring them on the podcast and hey, talk about your life. And then now you’re able to connect with that person when you see them on a Sunday morning.

Justin Brady: Absolutely. the you talked to a lot of young people and so probably this will be the final note. But are there a lot of turn offs because I know that when I speak to people about the church or about Christians in general, just, in my discussions, actually, maybe there are two questions. But are there any turn offs that often come up in individuals? Younger people are like, you Christians believe this. That’s disgusting to me. And I could never be a Christian for that reason. Are there any turn offs that you get a lot that you’re like, We don’t believe that at all. that’s not even remotely what we believe.

Rob Pearson: Yeah. Yeah. yeah. I, met with a girl not too long ago in, in a group. She’s my, my dad says that, how she worded it, but it was about sexuality. And it was like, Hey, I’m bisexual and my, or I was bisexual. And, he said, because I did that, I’m going to hell is, is that. Is that, true? Is that what the Bible says? And so it was really cool because I said, let’s put a pin in that. And then we worked through the gospel, which the gospel says, we’re all sinners. And that includes me, right? I’m a messed up sinner. But Jesus came and died for me. And if I put my trust in him, it’s as if I never sinned. He wiped away, all my sin. And I can stand before God because of Jesus. I can stand before God righteous someday. And, so after we worked through that and I, said, okay, so let’s go back to, let’s go back to what your dad says. Is that true? He’s if, I put my faith in Jesus, then, no, like you’re absolutely right.

Justin Brady: There is a sense, I do think, and it’s sad, but just like any other religion, any other organized group, any other group of, any other community, I do think there is a strong sense, correct me if I’m wrong, in some people who identify as Christians that have this almost Christian elitism. Where they’re like, in order to choose to follow Jesus, your life has to look like this, and this, otherwise you’re not in the club. I do see that. I don’t know if you see that, but, do you see that as well?

Rob Pearson: Yeah. I think that, I think that’s what Jesus was. Was teaching against when he’s talking to the Pharisees where the Pharisees were like, you guys are you clean up the outside? But inside you’re just you’re horrible, right? And like you’re doing all these things on the outside

Justin Brady: this was Jesus talking to the religious leaders of the day,

Rob Pearson: day,

Justin Brady: saying, you guys are the judgy ones, you’re being horrible, you have all these hoops you’re asking people to jump through that I never instructed anybody to jump through.

Rob Pearson: Yeah, absolutely. And so he, so he says that to them. And then he, he’s, who comes to us in our sin, right? he doesn’t come to us and say, clean up your life

Justin Brady: Yeah.

Rob Pearson: and then I’ll save you. Like we would all be screwed if that was the case, right? and, and so no, it’s, he comes into our lives. And he starts changing us from the inside out. My favorite verse in the whole Bible is Philippians 1. 6. He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. So once Jesus starts his work in somebody, he continues working. And the Holy Spirit comes and lives inside of them. And works against the sin nature and then there’s this internal war that goes on inside and you’re fighting against, your flesh and your sin. And does a Christian’s life look, perfect? no, absolutely not. I am, I’m in progress this side of heaven. And, and I think that’s an important thing for anybody walking into a church because sometimes you can walk into a church and say, Hey, the church is saying to, follow Jesus. And that means to obey him and do some things. It does mean to do some things, right? that’s hypocrisy. Cause I’m seeing this guy doing this. yeah, there’s sinners too, so the church is filled with sinners that are being changed by Jesus.

Justin Brady: Yeah, following Jesus, being a Christian is not a certain point in time. It’s not specific criteria. It’s a trajectory. And it’s what I think I hear you saying, and I think a lot of people think that, X, Y, and Z need to be done before I be a Christian. And what you’re saying is that’s not actually what Christianity is. It looks like, according to the Pew data, that’s what people thought it was. And so everybody is I grew up in a Christian house. My dad went to church. I guess I’m a Christian. It’s that’s not it at all. And so maybe this data, is an opportunity for Christians. Maybe this is opportunity for the church. You guys see how I use those interchangeably? It’s gonna blow some minds out there. Rob Pearson, the Youth and Connections Pastor at Living Waters Fellowship here in Des Moines, I believe. What’s the podcast on the website if people want to reach out and follow up on anything you said?

Rob Pearson: it’s Living Waters Fellowship. You can find it on Spotify or Apple. And, just look up Living Waters Fellowship. Yeah, that’s all you gotta do.

Justin Brady: easy enough. Rob, thank you so much for coming on the Iowa podcast.

Rob Pearson: having me. It was great.