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Mike Wagner: Hey

Jason Kiesau: Hey everyone, welcome to the Iowa Business Podcast. My name’s Jason Kiesau, filling in for Justin Brady. We’re in the Jethro’s Barbecue Studio, and today I’d like to welcome our special guest, Mike Wagner with White Rabbit Group. But before we get to Mike, I’d like you direct you to Iowapodcast.com/business to check out a conversation we had with one of our collaborators, Beth Coonen, with Dentons Davis Brown Law, where she talks about maximizing your recruiting and hiring strategies. Back to Mike. Mike works with organizations after their recruiting and hiring strategies takes place, more in this space between leaders and their direct reports. That’s a big space, Mike. Tell us more about that.

Mike Wagner: Well, it turns out to be really important. Who knew that if you liked your boss, you would stay longer, do better, and, um, add more value to the organization or the business? Well, That’s how it’s turned out for us.

Jason Kiesau: Yeah. So go back to liking the boss Is that where the, um… When I’m talking to clients, it’s, it’s, it’s really emphasizing the whole, uh, the whole, I guess, cliché of people don’t quit organizations, people quit managers.

Mike Wagner: Yeah, that seems to bear out in the research too. There’s a Harvard survey, for example, that was a pretty large one, and it turned out that one-third of all employees said that they would forego a pay raise if my company would just do one thing.

Jason Kiesau: What’s that one thing?

Mike Wagner: That one thing is fire my boss. You don’t have to give me a vacation, don’t give me a pay raise, just fire the guy I report to.

Jason Kiesau: How do they measure that?

Mike Wagner: Ah. It was a larger survey. I don’t know exactly, but it was part of, uh, an international survey, and it was something that they found to be true in many places.

Jason Kiesau: That’s a big deal

Mike Wagner: That is.

Jason Kiesau: So do you think that’s, um, just lack of fit between leader and direct report? Do you think that’s a bad boss or bad leader? Like, what do you think attributes to that?

Mike Wagner: Well, there’s plenty of people that have bad boss experiences. In fact, one of the exercises we have people do early on in a one-on-one context is to share their bad boss stories. Yeah. And it actually creates affinity. It’s like, “Oh, you’ve got one? I’ve got one too.” Yeah. So we’re kind of shared misery, you know? Um, so there’s no shortage there. But what I’ve found is that just like anything in human relationships, if you become intentional and you kind of open yourself up to regularly meeting with another person, you can improve the relationship. Uh, I’ve seen that over and over again, and there’s some basic skills that people need in order to, to kinda improve the relationship between them and, uh, their direct reports. And when they do that, things get better.

Jason Kiesau: I like that a lot. Intentional meeting. One thing I came away with over the past 10 years of what seems like a little more chaos around us is there is no substitute for a conversation

Mike Wagner: There really isn’t. And, um, we don’t make time for that. We don’t value it. Um, but yet it’s really kind of the stickiness, the glue that allows us to, um, to help and develop people. Uh, lots of times I’ll say a conversation, especially an intentionally scheduled regular one-on-one relationship where you’re meeting with your direct reports, that’s kind of like a dojo where you teach skills and develop people. If you don’t have it, well then you’re just hoping that they figure it out on their own, and when they mess up, well, that’s not my problem, that’s their problem, rather than becoming that developmental leader

Jason Kiesau: Okay, so the dojo. I like that a lot as well. Some of the work that I do, um, about half the general population tends to be more task-oriented, okay? About half the general pla- general, uh, population tends to be more relationship-oriented. Um, and as I categorize things like that, the task-oriented may miss the teaching opportunities to build relationship, to build the trust, to connect, to connect- Mm-hmm um, which can hurt the relationship. Um, we’re not even talking about teaching skills yet, right? They’re just focused on the result, focused on the process, whatever. Yeah.

Mike Wagner: Yes, exactly.

Jason Kiesau: Now, the relationship-focused people, the people people, which I think you’re a people person, I consider myself a people person. A people-oriented leader may get so distracted by the relationship that they don’t even get to the task or teaching the skills either. Yes. So it’s almost like there needs to be an intention around, um, the space of those skills. Mm-hmm. Is that part of- Yeah,

Mike Wagner: I mean, that’s, that’s, the that’s the discipline. Uh, that’s the intentional practices. So one is learning how to have a conversation in the context of one-on-one. The task-oriented person sometimes doesn’t really know how to break things down so they can be taught or communicated, so they can be that unconscious competent. They’ve never really thought about how to teach judo, to, uh, use another illustration from- Yeah … a movie, the “Karate Kid”. They, they don’t really have that, haven’t thought that way through. They just want the thing done. Um, the downside with, uh, the people people is lots of times they won’t risk the relationship. Yeah. They have a hard time giving feedback, and we often talk about relationship capital being built up. Uh, over time, regular one-on-ones and learning how to have these positive conversations, these effective conversations, builds enough relationship capital for people to be at ease, um, to teach people, uh, and find receptivity, and also to challenge people and stretch them. Uh, when I ask people why they don’t give feedback, they almost always say, “Well, I’m afraid that the person will take it personally.” Oh, yeah.

Jason Kiesau: yeah

Mike Wagner: And, um, that kind of goes away if you meet often enough and learn it’s really just about the work.

Jason Kiesau: Yeah feedback is, uh, feedback is almost a taboo. We all– We know it needs to happen. We know we need it

Mike Wagner: Yeah, of course

Jason Kiesau: Do I want it? Oh gosh, I don’t know.

Mike Wagner: Yeah. Well, coaches are gonna say, “Hey, um, the– my favorite players to recruit are the ones who say,

Jason Kiesau: coach.’” Oh, yeah.

Mike Wagner: ‘ Hey, coach, coach me hard.’” Oh, yeah. “Coach me hard. I can take it. I just wanna get better.” Um, that’s unique, and it’s great, and when it happens, it’s a blessing, but most of the time, we need to build enough relational capital with people that they trust that we really want to do best by them. Not always going

Jason Kiesau: to, um… Not everyone is– ha-has that, um, coachability, right? Um, there was a great white paper, and this came out years ago that, uh, it was titled “Hiring for Attitude,” and the idea of it was, um, don’t hire for skills. Hire for the things like coachability, acceptance of feedback, emotional intelligence, things like that, um, which, I mean, we could probably narrow down and figure out what percentage of the population is, is, is– has that coachability. But, um, there’s a gap there. Yeah. There’s a gap there for the leaders. Uh, uh, tell me about the connection piece, right? Because, okay, so you can have leaders meeting one-on-one. Yeah. That may never, ever build the darn connection, so break down the connection-building process.

Mike Wagner: Well, part of it is learning to ask questions. So, uh, w- we spend a lot of time teaching people how to actually interview direct reports, how to use open-ended questions and clarifying questions to actually discover what’s going on. Um, it throws people off a little bit because they feel like, “I’m the leader, I should have all the answers.” Uh, but learning how to actually do a lot of inquiry, uh, use open-ended questions, uh, learn how to listen for opportunities to go deeper with clarifying questions is what builds amazing connection. And it’s about the work. It’s about, uh, the things that need to be done. It’s about the outcomes or the misses, the skill sets that aren’t there. You do that often enough, and people are really good, good at speaking to one another and having meaningful, deep conversations about developmental needs inside the business

Jason Kiesau: So what do you think? W- what’s the trigger point in there? Is that as my leader, you’re asking me questions to where I feel like I have a voice, I feel like you’re interested, I feel like you’re curious? What is the

Mike Wagner: Our short definition of connection is the direct report feels heard, uh, which means you actually create space where they can talk. Uh, but not just heard, understood. You’ve asked clarifying questions. You haven’t done that perfunctory, “How about those Hawkeyes?” That type of thing. You’ve done more than that. And then the last is, I feel safe to say whatever I need to say. One of the, um, managers I was working with recently, uh, he has a new direct- he has a new boss, I should say. He’s reporting to somebody new. And, uh, I said, “So, um, what’s your assessment early on?” Maybe they’re six, seven weeks into this relationship. And he said, “Best boss I’ve ever had.” And I said, “How do you know?” And he said, “Handles bad news better than anybody I’ve ever worked with.”

Jason Kiesau: Oh, okay

Mike Wagner: Lots of people hoard bad news and never share it unless it’s really forced upon them, uh, usually by an escalation with an internal customer or an external customer. Um, being able to be honest is the third element. So heard, understood, and professionally just safe to say whatever I need to say. Yeah. And I think we, um, at direct reports eventually will see through if that stuff’s not there. Yeah, you can’t fake that. You know, people are not stupid, and they can read that fairly well. Um, and it does take time, though. So uh, one of my favorite stories I was doing, um, early on I was, uh, doing a debrief with a bunch of leaders. We had them doing one-on-ones. I’m going around the room. I get to this one, uh, young professional. She’s, um, I think she was a process engineer. Her name was Heather. And I said, “So Heather, you haven’t said anything lately. Uh, what do you think about your one-on-ones? How’s it going?” And she said, “Well, You know, um, I think they’re stupid, and I think it’s a waste of time.” I said, “Hey, I appreciate that.” I mean, we’re in this group m- setting with other managers, and that’s what Heather is saying. And, um, and she goes on and says, “And all my direct reports feel like it’s a stupid thing and a waste of time.” I said, “I appreciate that. Got anything else for me?” And she said, “Well, we have felt that way for the last eight weeks,” ’cause we had been doing this for a while, and we were doing a debrief at eight weeks. And she said, “And something happened last week.” I said, “What happened?” “Two of my direct reports met me in the lobby and said, ‘We’re having our one-on-one today.’ And they said, ‘Yeah, because Wagner’s forcing us to. It’s a stupid thing.’ ‘ No, no, we want to have the one-on-one.’” And she said, “Something happened in week seven to make it better. We were comfortable enough. We have enough relational capital with one another, whatever it was, and our collaborative conversations and performance as a team has gone up, and I see it continually going up.” I said, “Well, that’s how it works.” I like to coach, uh, Coach Campbell’s, uh, quote, uh, from Iowa State now at Penn State,

Jason Kiesau: yeah. Well, be careful saying that. I know, I know. That’s a kind of a

Mike Wagner: I know. It’s a kind of a sore point, but he makes a great point. And he says, you know, um, the process for exas- for us was the process of having regular one-on-ones. And he would tell his players, “Fall in love with the process-” Yeah. “… and the process will love you back.” Yeah. But the last thing he says is really the kind of the winner, “Fall in love with the process, and the process will love you back. You just don’t know when.” Seven weeks, it took seven weeks for the process to love Heather and her team back. So what has to happen is that we call these things practices, these practices between leaders and direct reports that over time they pay off, and they require diligence and development.

Jason Kiesau: Yeah.

Mike Wagner: Now

Jason Kiesau: Did Heather have an option of not doing it, or w- had it been ingrained in maybe the leadership culture from your sessions? I mean-

Mike Wagner: No,

Jason Kiesau: yeah …top-down leadership saying you Better do In this particular case, it was just a pilot program, which is often our first engagement with a company. Yeah.

Mike Wagner: And so it was an experiment, and, um, it could go away, and, uh, they would’ve been happy if it’d gone away. After, Could go away. Been happy if it went away. After, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, um, no, she had, um, she had a sense of, um, “This is temporary and I can outlast Wagner.” So yes. Yeah, it was

Jason Kiesau: little did she know

Mike Wagner: and, there was no… And it’s true, Jason, we f- we’re amazed at how few businesses have the discipline of regular one-on-ones as a, a foundational discipline. We teach other things that take place inside one-on-ones, but that is increasingly rare. You know, people are reactive. People are moving too fast. They’re throwing people into work and hoping somehow it all gets done. Yeah.

Jason Kiesau: Well, and it’s easy to… Um, I had a direct report that was, uh, that was more, uh, w- that was highly relational. Mm-hmm. And, um, was more amiable. Um, liked, uh, liked predictability, liked security, really valued the relationship. If I didn’t build a relationship with them, nothing– I mean, it– other, everything else would be tough. And I v- I, I looked at myself as a, um, a good leader, a good manager, and I was, I called it a walk-around leader, right? I’d walk around, high fives, fist bumps, “What do you need? What do you need? What do you need?” And I mistake– I had mistaken that for, um, him not needing anything, right? So I kid you not, Mike, I, I canceled our one-on-ones two weeks in a row, and he came over to me in the kindest way possible. He was nervous. He was kind of giggling, which first thing told me something was wrong. And I’m like, “What is going on?” And he’s like, “Ah, nothing, nothing. Um, mm.” And then I go, “Do we need to get a conference room?” And he goes, “Can we?” So we sat down, and he let me have it, and the, the issue was I was canceling one-on-ones. I took him for granted

Mike Wagner: Oh, yeah. Um, I can predict that people are looking for new work, uh, by the regularity or the continued failure to have a one-on-one. Um, I have many stories of people telling me, “Yeah, we haven’t had a one-on-one with the last four weeks or whatever.” And I’ll lean over and say, “So how long you been looking for a new job?” And they will say, “Who told you?” And I said, “You just did.”

Jason Kiesau: Yeah, that’s… Wow, that’s amazing. That’s amazing.

Mike Wagner: People stay when they feel like they’re learning and getting better, so they want feedback. I mean, the, the research is, um, is often that, uh, that, that leaders feel like they give too much feedback and direct reports feel like they don’t get enough. So it’s almost always that managers need to be more bold and willing to to challenge and to grow people. That’s, it’s what has to happen if they’re gonna develop them

Jason Kiesau: Do you find, um, do you find this more applicable and relevant with new managers and supervisors? Or when you get into companies, are you finding that it’s, if it’s a gap, it’s a gap for most?

Mike Wagner: It’s a gap for most. Yeah. It’s a gap for most. And, and part of it’s what we call the technician trap, and that is a lot of people end up with people leadership responsibility, direct reports, because they were the best technician- Yep … they were the deepest expert, they were the go-to problem solver inside their organizations, and that’s where their sense of value was and their identity a- as a professional, which just makes perfect

Jason Kiesau: Yep, yep

Mike Wagner: Um, so that would happen, and then they suddenly got three or four people reporting to them, a team. I remember, like one automation engineer suddenly had, like, three or four people that were young automation engineers working with him. And, um, what happens then is that they’ve never really thought about, “How do I reproduce this skill in another person?” They’ve worked really hard at mastery at their own level of professional

Jason Kiesau: Oh, yeah

Mike Wagner: but they’ve never thought about, “How would I teach this to another person?” And that’s the trap. That’s the, the cul-de-sac they end up in. It’s like, “Now I got these people reporting to me, and the easiest thing for me to do is just do it myself.

Jason Kiesau: Mm-hmm

Mike Wagner: Um, I’ll just, um, I’ll just… It takes too long to explain. I’ll just take care of it myself,” that type of thing. Uh, I remember one, uh, client I went to work with, and I was going to meet with this new manager. I happened to meet with his direct reports first. And, uh, I said, “You’ll like Sean.” I said, “Why will I like Sean?” ” Sean, um,” “Sean, uh, always comes in and solves every problem for us.” Um, and one guy said, “Yeah, rides in on his white horse.” So I got to meet with Sean. I said, “How’s your horse?” And he said, “What are you talking about?” I says, “Well, I’ve been talking to a few people here, um, at the corporation and, uh, the business, and, uh, I understand you, you, you have a horse.” “I, I, I don’t have a horse. I, I’ve never had a horse. What are you talking about?” “Well, They say you ride in on your white horse and you rescue the day.” And ever s- from that time on, we had great conversations because it was something he had to really struggle with, but he he had to realize that he can’t rescue people. He can’t be the hero. His value no longer was being the, the best problem solver who solves all the problems and is the hero of the day. His value to the company was he makes other problem solvers. Yeah. He was able to reproduce his problem-solving skills in other people, and that’s his value, and he can multiply his effectiveness.

Jason Kiesau: Yeah, okay. So the first step with that, I can see, I can see having a coaching conversation and, and hitting the white horse point hard and clear, but playfully, and using that as a leverage point for follow-up conversations like, “How’s the white horse doing?” Which is the, how are you doing with the so- problem-solving versus delegating? What’s next?

Mike Wagner: Well, first of all, well, in many cases, let me say this, is I, I’ve worked around, with around 300 managers in the last, uh, five years. Yeah. And so I’ve got all this game film in my head. So, um, I, I would say one of the very first things is they have to break down what they do when they attack a problem, because they haven’t brock- brock- broke- broken it down into constituent parts. Um, I, I… The illustration I sometimes use is, um, uh, when I was in the dorms at college, uh, there was a guy that had this great finger-picking routine on the guitar, and I was trying to learn guitar. And I said, “I love that finger-picking routine. Whenever you play that, that’s just awesome. Would you show it to me?” And he said, “I can’t.” I said, “What do you mean you can’t?” He says, “I don’t know what I do. I just do it, and I’ve never broken down the finger-picking routine to be able to show somebody else how to do it. I don’t know how I did it.” Well, a lot of experts, technicians, problem solvers have never thought about, well, what is step one, step two, step three? How do I do this? And so lots of times we have to work with people to kind of walk them through how to analyze the processes they go through, and how would you teach somebody else?

Jason Kiesau: And, and don’t you think that’s a bigger, that’s a bigger leadership problem? Because if they’re not being challenged to break it down and document it,

Mike Wagner: No, likely Nobody else is either. Plus, I get applause, uh, when I solve a problem. Yeah, so Oh, so there’s the risk of- I’ve got a lot of hu- lot of reinforcement, like I’m the hero. People like it when I can do this.

Jason Kiesau: So- I like it when I can do this. right. I mean, There’s all this, yeah.

Mike Wagner: there, uh, I, I had one CEO that really was perceptive about this. He says, “You know, I have to realize my, that people’s identity and sense of significance is around their individual

Jason Kiesau: Huge. Yeah

Mike Wagner: Yeah And I get, I said, “Totally understand that.” And it’s, it’s, well, the thing that we see is that, um, the managers we work with, as we walk them through the practices and they begin to develop this and kind of dig their way out of the technician trap, is that there is a shift where, um, their sense of, uh, value was in their expertise and their ability to do things. And what happens is they become a student of their direct reports, just like coaches and parents are. Like, you know, no k- two kids are the same. Yeah. No two students are the same. Each one’s motivated differently. So they become, the shift is I’m a student of my area of expertise, let’s say system architecture, to becoming a s- a student of my direct reports. Yeah. And then they become students of what are the components in my area of expertise that match this person, and how would I teach to this person? It’s, it’s a, it’s the most satisfying thing I’ve ever done- Mm-hmm … is to see leaders become students of their direct reports and, and really kind of just delight in seeing someone get it and be able to, to do better in some ways. Uh, I remember one, um, one, uh, engineer telling me, he said it was really hard for him because the engineers he was working with, the young direct reports, um, they now know more than he does. And he kind of beamed at it. Yeah. And he said, “At first it really bothered me ’cause I was the go-to, the answer guy that knew all the stuff. But now I’m kind of like, yeah, I’ve, I’ve got people that know more than I know.”

Jason Kiesau: That’s such a culture thing. as well because Yeah. if you’re Made to feel like- you need to be a certain way, like– And That’s where I was going with the um, okay, so you’re working with a manager who, uh, maybe doesn’t know how to develop the process or system and, um, and um, an unconscious competent Yeah, and they’re, they’re not being told to or taught to, which tells me that there’s a bigger cultural dynamic there.

Mike Wagner: Yeah, no succession

Jason Kiesau: You need to be given permission. I mean, I think that’s part of the work that the challenge I have is I call it judgment-free curiosity and chall- trying to challenge managers and leaders. Like, what does it mean to have judgment-free curiosity with your direct reports to where you are totally open and trying to be as unbiased as possible, which is tough to do, to learn about them to meet their needs? Yeah Right? And that’s, that’s exactly what you’re saying of, of being a student of your team. Yeah. Um, that’s got… It, it’s almost like permission needs to be given that says, “This is how we’re gonna do things as leaders, and this is, this is the new benchmark-” Mm. “… for how we’re doing things.” Yeah. It really is the challenge Do you, um, do you take them through, uh, do you take them through the process of developing the process of breaking down their work and communicating it in a way that makes sense?

Mike Wagner: question. We, we do train– We give them a process, so that’s one kind of knowing. So if you think about the kinds of knowing out there, there’s knowing about, “Oh, there’s, I know about chocolate chip cookies.” Um, there’s knowing how, the process of making chocolate chip cookies. Uh, but then there’s also going out and making a chocolate chip cookie. And so we will, uh, spend some time in a very, very easy to understand way. Here’s the process. Here’s the process for giving feedback, for example. Um, but we don’t stop there. We say, “Now go do it, and then come back and tell me how it went.” So behavioral learning is, um, learned by repetition and by failure, uh, messing up and then getting better over time. And, um, so we are gonna give them, uh, four basic processes, uh, how to have effective one-on-ones and lead them, uh, how to give and receive feedback, how to develop skills in the context of work, and then how to delegate so that you create more people leaders. Um, those four things, they’re all… I always, my motto is four steps and no more, so four and no more. I promise it will be linebacker simple, ’cause I was a linebacker and I need to keep it simple. And the big thing is to go do it, and then come back and tell me how it went. We put people in peer groups. They learn from that. So our l- our learning model is really based, I think, on good adult learning assumptions like, um, adult learners are problem solvers. So here’s the problem. Here’s the process to address it. Learn how to do it. Go do it. Tell me how it worked. And, uh, meet with other people working on the same problem. So it’s, again, it’s one of the most satisfying things I’ve ever done.

Jason Kiesau: Yeah, I love that. I, um, in, in, in some of the, the, the work I done, did preparing for this, uh, I love the developmental mindset,

Mike Wagner: Yes.

Jason Kiesau: right?

Mike Wagner: That’s, um, we, when we did our research on this, um, in addition to the, the c- uh, client companies that invited us to do this research, um, along with that we researched, um, two other major leadership challenges, combat leaders and, uh, football coaches, college football coaches, and volleyball coaches and that.

Jason Kiesau: Combat leaders. and coaches. Okay. Team coaches, like volleyball, softball, basketball, football, things like that. And what we found was that they all, um, they all had systems approach, um, and they were very much in terms of experiential learning, process it, um, yeah. They w- we learned so much from them just to see what it took for them to create a system-wide behavior so that it wasn’t just a one-off.

Mike Wagner: So we had some people doing it, but not everybody doing it. There were certain kind of shared practices, and that’s, that’s what we landed on. Then the research, um, kind of confirmed it, because the literature on the subject says, uh, managers have maybe anywhere between 25 and 35 behavioral skills they should manage, but we chose the four highest impact. Yeah.

Jason Kiesau: yeah

Mike Wagner: So keep it simple is our motto. Uh, one of the guys I worked with was, um, uh, had been a combat Marine, he’s no longer an active duty Marine, and he came to me, I said… And said, um, “In the Marine Corps, we we say, ‘Break it down Barney style.’” Which is… And I said, “Barney being the purple dinosaur?” And he said, “Yeah.” Oh, wow. So break it down Barney style. So people will come in and they think we’re gonna learn something really hard and difficult, or they got their laptops out, and I say, “It’s not that kind of learning. You’ll understand this really well, but going and doing it’s gonna be the hard part for you, ’cause you’re not gonna be very good at it when you

Jason Kiesau: Oh, yeah. yeah. I love that. I think everybody needs that. Um So a- at the beginning, I was, uh, talking about the conversation with Beth Coonan with, um, Dentons Davis Brown Law about recruiting and hiring and, um, led in suggesting that you’re, uh, you start after that. However, when we’re talking about the technician trap, That is about recruiting and hiring, that is about promoting within. What? Okay, So uh, business owners and leaders that are listening to that, they’re, they’re hearing this. Okay, so hiring, somebody in a managerial role or supervisor role or a people leader role that’s really good at what they do, there’s other stuff that needs to be done. What are some of the leadership behaviors, manager behaviors that they should be also considering, um, above and beyond that technical competence?

Mike Wagner: Well, a coachability, um, maturity in the sense that, um, they don’t have to be the, the know-it-all, the, you know, the, the main person. What we have found is that we’ve been able to work with most any group and almost any leader personality-wise. So it’s not been that so much as that we put them into a community of peers where they’re all learning the same thing, and, you know, this so I’ve got a lot of stories of people like Heather that said, “This is stupid.”

Jason Kiesau: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Mike Wagner: And, um, I started calling it positive envy

Jason Kiesau: Okay

Mike Wagner: because, um, we, we had a second engagement with one company and, um, we came in there and, uh, I was gonna be working with these, uh, direct reports, and then they said, “We got five more from, you know, Joe’s, uh, department over here.” I said, “Joe? The last time we did this, Joe thought this was the stupidest thing ever.” “I can’t believe he- he’s even having one-on-ones.” And, um, you know, this was an HR professional talking to me, and she said, “Well, here’s the thing, you know. He began to notice the other departments and their performance

Jason Kiesau: Oh, yeah. “

Mike Wagner: And he looked at the performances hi- of his group, and he kinda said, ‘Oh, well, it seems to be working. I think it’s stupid, but it works.’” And so that’s why I call it positive envy, is that so I’m, I’m okay to kinda leverage positive envy. So I can, I can look at a variety of personality types- Yeah … that I think will never, and I’ve seen, I’ve been fooled every time, is that if they see it works and the development of other leaders in their departments, they sometimes say, “Yeah, sign me up for that, and I- I’ll, I’ll get serious about it.”

Jason Kiesau: Well, I think that makes what you do so powerful is that you’re, you’re also a student of your learners.

Mike Wagner: Ja

Jason Kiesau: And to be able to go in with that, I call it that judgment-free curiosity to, um, even the, even the naysayers, even the tough crowd. I, I– When I go into groups, I’ll say there’s, there’s… You’re one, uh… There’s three types of people in here. Some of you, you just can’t wait for this stuff, and you’re gonna be hanging on to every word I say, and you’re ready to go. Yeah. Some of you, um, you’re indifferent, a little apathetic right now. You’re optimistic, and as long as I don’t screw up, you’re on board. Then the rest of you- Yes.

Mike Wagner: Yes. I’m gonna have to bring it, and I’m

Jason Kiesau: gonna have to prove it, and yeah. have to prove it Oh, I, I like that. I like those categories. And the, the tough thing for us to, to kind of embrace and just call it our reality is that primarily we live in a marketplace where cynicism is the air we breathe. Yeah. Oh.

Mike Wagner: And so I’m willing to start with the assumption that the cynicism is saying this is a bunch of hooey. yeah And, um, let me prove myself. Yeah. But so I’m not, uh, I try not to take it personally. Most of the time I succeed at that, but sometimes I don’t. And it’s like, yeah, I’m just gonna assume that you’re cynical. You think this is soft, weird stuff. Um, and I’ve- I’m just gonna do what I need to do, be patient with you, uh, be disciplined. I think one of the big things is discipline and, uh, regular practice. And so insisting on, you know, do the work, do it over and over again, and, and the results will come. Campbell’s right. You just don’t know when the process will love you back, but it will love you back.

Jason Kiesau: Man, I, I love all, and and just what you’re saying there, that’s just, that’s great for all leaders from a discipline standpoint, a humility standpoint, a curiosity standpoint, and it Sounds like you’re walking your talk with it, and you are supporting others in that process. Mike, this is great conversation. Thank you. Um, ……Mike Wagner with White Rabbit Group. Um, tell them How to– tell the audience how to find you. You’ve got some work coming up with ABI. You’ve got some work, uh, classes that you’re, or sessions that you’re teaching with DMACC. Yes, Tell everybody where to find you.

Mike Wagner: Um,

Jason Kiesau: White Rabbit Group or

Mike Wagner: whiterabbitgroup.com or mike@whiterabbitgroup.com. Email me. I’d love the conversation. I really would. And, um, yeah, in June I’ll be in Coralville for the ABI, um, Taking Care of Business conference, and I’ve been assigned a, a breakout where we’ll unpack the, the technician trap and how to break out of it. And so I’m looking forward to doing that. Uh, in, um, May of this year, there will be a, for the first time, a public offering of Connected Leader training. Uh, so anybody that’s listening that, uh, can just head out to the DMACC website, uh, DMACC Business Resources, you’ll be able to navigate to it. And, um, that’ll be the very first time. Part of the reason I’m excited about that is that typically our, our work has always been done in large enough companies that can put together a cohort of people leaders inside the company. Yeah. This will be the very first time we’re able to offer to sometimes smaller companies with maybe two or three people leaders, or people who want to sample it before they invest. Yeah. And so maybe they do have a large cohort of leaders, but hey, I’m just gonna risk a little bit of capital to find out what this is all about. So that’s, um, that’s coming up in May.

Jason Kiesau: in- Super powerful. Love talking to you about this. Uh, good luck with all of that. Thanks for listening to the Iowa Business Podcast. You can check out all of our episodes at Iowapodcast.com. Thank you